Preparing for the Paris Paralympics with Chuck Aoki

Transcript

Brendan Aylward (00:00)

Welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have conversations with individuals who are building accessible businesses, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports. Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but give them a platform to share their stories so we can make a more accessible world. Today we are joined by Chuck Aoki, a three-time U.S. Paralympic medalist, four-time world championship medalist, and three-time Parapan American medalist in the sport of wheelchair rugby. He's currently training for the Paris 2024 Paralympic Games, where he will captain the U.S. Team.

He also works for the University of Michigan in their adaptive sports and fitness department. Chuck, thank you for joining me today.

Chuck Aoki (00:54)

Yeah, my pleasure, Brendan. Thanks for having me.

Brendan Aylward (00:57)

We're big fans of UMich. We worked with their fitness and recreation department. A bunch of their trainers took our AdaptX course. we've been following the work of Dr. O, Eric, yourself pretty closely, our creative director for the nonprofit is a student at University of Michigan in undergrad, majoring in UX design. So Michigan is big fans, exciting football season as well. So what is your role at the university?

Chuck Aoki (01:06)

Yeah, love it. Go, blue.

Yeah, so my role at the University of Michigan.

is actually a pretty unique one and pretty cool. So we have a position called the Community Access Navigator and that's a role that we designed via the Craig E. Sealson Foundation grant we received to essentially, very broadly speaking, get folks with spinal cord injuries more active, sports and fitness, competitive sports, recreational sports, fitness opportunities, doesn't really matter, just how can we get them more active? And then on the second hand, a little more unique to us is we also really are trying to get the medical community more engaged, whether that's doctors, PTs, residents, OTs,

Pipeline and way to get people involved in adaptive sports You know anyone who's been in that sort for a while knows that there really is no Systematic way you get involved in it's not like a kid who grows up, you know five hits Oh, what's your kid gonna play it sports? Oh baseball soccer, whatever There really isn't that for disability because it strikes at so many different times and so one of the goals of our program along with our program director dr Farron me okanlami is to let's systematize it Let's find ways to build consistent pipelines and pathways

to adaptive sports and the way we said is everybody goes to the doctor so why wouldn't we reach out to that so I do a lot of work educating like I said educating medical providers medical students as well kind of trying to get them on the front end saying hey you're in school let's get you some experiences with this so that you know as they become future clinicians they're like oh that's right I remember adaptive sports and they'll seek that out you know wherever they end up across the country you know this some will hopefully stay here in Ann Arbor but inevitably a lot will travel elsewhere so it's been a really rewarding program to get to be a part of and a really cool thing

Brendan Aylward (02:58)

that was a conversation that we had with a guest 10 episodes or so ago, Sarah Skeels, about medical professionals maybe not being well equipped to work with disabilities or maybe not being well-versed in the etiquette and the communication. Did you have any experiences growing up that kind of were negative or maybe on the contrary, positive?

Chuck Aoki (03:23)

Yeah, you know, like a lot of kids who grew up with a disability, I grew up with mine, rare congenital genetic disorder. I certainly had a mix, you know, certainly had a mix of interactions. I think what I would say is I had a lot of neutral to bad ones until we sort of found the good doctors who we really liked a lot. My mom, was very persistent and we're going to find you the best possible care. She said, I don't care if we wait in the waiting room for an hour to see them, as long as when we get in there, they spend whatever time is necessary with us. we went through some iterations of, you know, some doctors who would kind of

look at me and say, oh, okay, not really sure what's going on there. Like, I guess we could try something until, and so we'd say, okay, great, kind of on to the next one. Let's find someone who's really gonna sit down and, and deal with it. So I think I've been lucky in my life to have doctors who were, who were really open to learning. You know, what I have is fairly rare, and so it's not the kind of thing where even something like spina bifida or spinal cord injury, doctors at least have heard of that and know like, okay, I know generally how to treat this, even if there are idiosyncrasies to every single person. What I had was very rare.

like, okay, how can we really treat that? You know, some doctors were very curious, some weren't, and so it was a process, definitely, of getting through the system and finding it, but you know, you talk to anyone with disability, they inevitably have a story of, you know, they weren't believed, someone said, oh, I don't think it's that bad, or well, I mean, you just tried this, it's like, yes, I've tried that, that's why I'm here. So yeah, it's a really important thing to work with doctors on disability etiquette, kind of how do you interact with a patient with disability who may present with something that normally you would say, okay, I'm gonna quote unquote fix this person.

That's my job. It's like well. No some of this thing is just static. This is how I am I need help with this other thing that it is so I think that's one of the biggest challenges and one of the things we Worked to overcome and I know it's a it's a challenge as well that you know quite frankly They're just not taught it. You know medical school is already busy and packed as it is It's kind of gets left by the wayside So that's also something we're working here at Michigan to try and change is how can we get involved with the medical school and their curriculum? As well, but yeah overall I would say you know my interaction with doctors now are pretty positive

Chuck Aoki (05:23)

I think that's through, you know, sort of painstaking effort to really spend the time to find that person who's really going to spend that good time with you and get to know you and understand you, which you know quite frankly I think you'd want from a doctor, able-bodied or disabled.

Brendan Aylward (05:34)

In general, absolutely, yeah. What was the diagnostic process like? I was reading some various things about how you broke a leg and continued to play sports because your condition, you don't have necessarily feeling in your extremities.

Chuck Aoki (05:44)

Yeah.

Chuck Aoki (05:52)

Yeah, so I have a very rare genetic condition. Briefly, it's called Phrenicary Sensory Autonomic Neurotopy Type II.

fancy words. Essentially I have no sensation, elbows down and knees down. Nothing. Pain, hot, cold vibration. And so the diagnostic process for me was actually quite interesting, you know, as a very young child, like infant to toddler, presented fairly normally. Maybe it was a little colicky, but nothing that seemed out of the ordinary. Until I learned how to walk on my knees, which my parents said, that's kind of odd, like I don't know why he's doing that. And then as a toddler when I was teething, I would literally chew my fingers.

Chuck Aoki (06:29)

I was leaving and she took me to the doctor, here we go to the doctors, and said, hey, like this seems unusual, right? And the doctor said, oh, he'll grow out of it. She was like, well, shouldn't this hurt? And he's like, oh no, he'll grow out of it. And you know, a new mom does not expect her child to have a rare genetic disorder. So she kind of said, okay, I'm sure the doctor's right and seen it before. And so, but so there was sort of ongoing things like that would happen the next couple of years. That was probably when I was two or three. A lot of ongoing different things where I would, I guess I would, one day I think I was curious,

a bunch of my nail off as a little kid because I wanted to see what was under it. This led to a discovery of a bedroom wall covered in blood in the morning and my mom terrified and there was me smiling. I said, hey good morning mom. And so that led to getting nerve biopsy done and eventually going down to the male clinic when I was 10 years old to sort of get the official diagnoses of the hereditary sensor on my neuropathy type 2, which again, fairly rare. There's five different types. What I have, I actually have one of the least severe. It goes all the way up to folks who have no sensation in their entire body. I have significantly more than that.

Brendan Aylward (07:08)

Mm-hmm.

Chuck Aoki (07:30)

And yeah, so that's pretty much what happened is we went to the Mayo Clinic. We did some tests We learned about the autonomic component. I also don't sweat on parts of my body So really interesting, you know from a scientific perspective a very interesting process And luckily we were but we figured it out fairly early as you mentioned I when I was six I think I broke my leg and walked on it and no one really realized because it didn't hurt And so that is what led me to start using a wheelchair Part-time and then finally switched using it full-time at age 10 so I could preserve what mobility I have in my legs

but I've still got a little bit. So it was an interesting process to say the least. I know I've certainly caused a lot of stress on my parents at the time. But all in all it's landed in a good place. I've got a good understanding of what I've got going on and sort of know how to handle myself.

Brendan Aylward (08:14)

Why was there a seven or eight year period between the initial concern and like the Mayo Clinic?

Chuck Aoki (08:23)

A couple reasons, I think one was just uncertainty kind of generally from my parents like well maybe this you know we don't actually know again this thing I have is quite rare so it was like the nerve biopsy we did in Minneapolis where I'm from was sort of like oh it's probably this. But I think it never really presented as a big problem until I broke my leg and I was probably about seven and at that point it's like okay let's really kind of settle down and actually drill down and kind of figure it out and I think another reason they took

While going to Mayo Clinic is a very interesting, very cool place, the reality is that going there was really just to confirm what we had kind of already figured was happening. You know, the doctor and the neurologist I had in Minnesota had researched it and said, yeah, I'm pretty sure this is it. I kind of did some good digging on that. So it was really just a case of, let's go here to kind of double check, confirm, make sure we're not missing anything. We discovered that I did a sweat on parts of my body. But yeah, so it was really just more just sort of a, it was no rush to go down there because we'd gotten a pretty good sense of what was going on.

It's like let's just sort of you know check the box and make sure yep. We're right This is what's happening and again if there's any Little things you can do because I actually have not been back to the Mayo Clinic as a patient since Because it was sort of like all right. This is what you got call us for you need anything

Brendan Aylward (09:36)

How was your childhood like navigating disability and social dynamics?

Chuck Aoki (09:42)

Yeah, it's interesting. I think my childhood was all in all pretty good. My parents were very supportive of me, but they were also very sort of driving of me. I said I grew up playing sports, loved sports, played baseball, played soccer, able-bodied, and eventually it was like, okay, can't play these anymore. I was obviously very upset, very distraught as a little kid, as any young kid would be being told, hey, you're not gonna play sports anymore. But my parents allowed me to be upset. They didn't try to say, hey, don't be mad,

They were like, you know, they got it, but they also said at the end of the day, okay, I know you're mad, but we're gonna find something for you. We're gonna find some way for you to be active. Like you're not, you're certainly not just gonna sit at home all day. And so they enrolled me in swimming lessons and through that is how I then also found wheelchair basketball. And so that really gave me a nice pathway into being active and being around other folks with disabilities. There were certainly a lot of times, especially as a younger kid, where I really felt isolated and that like I'm the only one in a wheelchair. Why is this happening to me? This doesn't seem fair.

you know, nobody else has to deal with it, why do I have to deal with it, did I do something wrong? A lot of frustration around that, but you know, again, I give a lot of credit to my parents who said like, hey, we're gonna figure this out. You know, yeah, it sucks, but we're gonna figure it out. We don't have much choice in life. And then, you know, socially, I think I was really lucky. I went to a school where the teachers in the building and the students were actually quite supportive. I encountered a little bit of bullying as a kid, but not a lot, honestly. I considered myself really lucky. Had a good group of friends who were kind of like,

Yeah, you use a wheelchair? Okay, like we're just gonna figure it out, you know, and inevitably I'm sure I missed out on some social opportunities but didn't really know about it. This is of course before social media, dating myself well, So it's not like I was watching on Facebook or Instagram or something people doing stuff that I wasn't at But you know I think I ultimately was able to find a good group of friends and again really finding sports and having a team in that Aspect of other kids also going through those challenges really is it was a robust support system I think helped me a lot and you know, some of those people are still my very close

friends to this day.

Brendan Aylward (11:43)

Awesome. I think I'm sure we'll talk about representation a bit as we kind of transition into the Paralympic discussion. Were you able to connect with anyone that had the same diagnosis as you did that matter to you?

Chuck Aoki (11:59)

Um, yeah, so I have never met anyone actually with type 2. I really can't stress how rare this is. I think when I was officially being diagnosed with a male clinic, the doctor said, yeah, well, we know the family of five in Canada with this, and that's all the other people we actually know with your type. So it's very, very rare. There's certainly more. But, you know, in a country that maybe doesn't have quite as advanced medicine, it might present very differently or confusingly. Um...

my mom actually, you know, early on, this is of course, early days of the internet, was all forums trying to find, she connected actually with a mom in Sweden whose son had type 3, so fairly similar to mine. And I know they chatted and talked and kind of interacted. We've never actually met, unfortunately, but they chatted and engaged. But no, I've never met anyone else really with my diagnosis. You know, I think what I've always found with my disabilities, I find people who have bits and pieces kind of like me. You know, someone who's walking to a parent, oh yeah, I get that. Someone who has hand impairments, oh yeah, I kind of get that.

get that you know I kind of bring all these different things together and really just find community and you know just moving through life differently or you know opening plastic bags differently or whatever like that so it's never been something for me that I just felt like this desire oh I've got to meet someone else who's just like me I think just the community as a whole has been has been really helpful.

Brendan Aylward (13:14)

You have a very prolific academic background, masters in public policy from Minnesota and a PhD from University of Denver. In process? Yeah. What were you initially interested in pursuing and has that evolved over the last few years?

Chuck Aoki (13:22.506)

It's still working. The PhD's, not there, Permanent hiatus, we'll call it.

Chuck Aoki (13:41)

Yeah, it has. I think my dad's a professor, so academics has always been a big part of my life and something I've always been important on. And I think my career has been in sport, of course. And that's what I've spent a lot of my time doing. But I've always been the kind of person who couldn't just do one thing. I couldn't just train and then come home and kind of sit on the couch. I'm like, all right, well, that was a good day. It's like, ah, I've got to have something else pushing me forward. for a long time, academics was that thing, whether it was my undergraduate degree and then saying, finish my undergrad, it's OK. What am I going to do now?

I agree with teaching, which I love to teach. I would happily be a teacher, but that was not very conducive with the athlete lifestyle, unfortunately, of traveling and being all over the country and all over the world. So I said, all right, what can I do instead? And so I was looking at different next level higher education programs. And I landed on public policy because a big part of my life and a big part of how I've always wanted to be is what can I give back to society? How can I build the next generation of whatever, whether it's disabled athletes, whether it's advocates on whatever issue?

that and so I think public policy is where I landed on is this is a way to kind of learn how to navigate and advocate within the systems and structures that exist, you know, like within governments, within nonprofits, kind of an understanding of how to do it. So I think, I entered into it with a global public policy focus we called. I was very interested in, sort of how we manage global issues and how do we kind of work together to solve these really challenging global problems like climate change or, just the rights of persons with disabilities.

those things. So I was very interested in that and then I was doing that for a while and graduated and kind of was in the same situation. I said okay what am I gonna do now? I'm probably not gonna go work full-time. This was two years before what was supposed to be the 2020 Tokyo Paralympics and I said well I guess I could. Someone sort of said why don't you see if you could do a PhD? I was like okay I guess I'll apply for it. And so I got in at University of Denver and I was really interested in studying the effects of big data and technology sort of on

democracy that was affecting the world around us. Really enjoyed my research there. Really was having a good time, met a good group of people, was allowing me the flexibility to travel and compete, but also sort of scratching my nerd side, as I like to call it. But then, obviously, the COVID-19 pandemic happened, as we all recall. I went remote and I kind of lost steam on it, had some health issues that I was kind of battling through. And it's something that I always have in my back pocket that I can always go back to, certainly, or lean into, but I've really been, like we discussed earlier, lucky to have this opportunity.

Chuck Aoki (16:10)

University of Michigan, had some other interests come up, some, you know, as Paralympic sport is growing, there's more commercial opportunities there coming along. And so, you know, it's something that I'm always a learner. I've always been a learner. I always have to be learning the next thing. If I'm driving my wife nuts, I read books, dense history textbooks. She's like, why are you reading that? Why don't you read something fun? I was like, oh, this is fun. She's like, okay, 800 pages on the Medici's is fun for you. And it's like, it is. So, so yeah, no, academics and learning has always been a big part of my life. And, you know, it's, like I said,

Brendan Aylward (16:29)

This is fun, yeah.

Chuck Aoki (16:40)

for a bit, but it's something I know I can always kind of go back to and lean on that background.

Brendan Aylward (16:45)

Yeah, absolutely, or maybe in some way you can find a way to maneuver it into your time at Michigan. Find a way to incorporate it there. Your first competitive sport was wheelchair basketball, but now obviously competing in wheelchair rugby. What influenced that transition from basketball to rugby?

Chuck Aoki (16:51)

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Chuck Aoki (17:04)

Yeah, so I grew up playing wheelchair basketball, absolutely loved it, had a blast, and yeah, really made some great friends with it, but it was a great sport. But what had happened when I, the way I found wheelchair rugby, I'd heard of it a little bit growing up, but never really considered it much. But in 2005, the movie Murderball came out, which folks may or may not be familiar with, you know, a documentary about the 2004, excuse me, U.S. Paralympic team, and you know, I was a 15-year-old boy at the time.

at each other and talking trash and crashing and partying and swearing and I was like that looks awesome and so my mom was like well I don't know like I don't have to look into it and so you know we did a little looking and I discovered that I would be eligible for it you know because as folks may not realize wheelchair basketball is very open to you know essentially anyone with a lower limb impairment of some kind it's quite it's quite open whereas wheelchair rugby you have to have an impairment in at least three and typically four limbs and because of my hand impairments that I have that are

eligible for this. I could play it. So I was like, well, let's find out. after some back and forth, they finally relented, okay, you can go to practice. So I went to practice in Minnesota. I showed up, you know, I probably weighed 120 pounds. And at the time there was, you know, guys who were former D2 football players, guys who'd played for like 15 years. they kind of looked at, you know, scrawny little me and was like, you want to play the sport? I was like, yeah, I want to play there. Like, okay, sounds good. So I hopped in a chair. And

Chuck Aoki (18:34)

crashed into walls and just, you know, utterly destroyed for about two hours straight. But I fell in love with it that night. I really did. The competitiveness, the intensity, the physicality of it, you know, it really just, it spoke to me in a way that, you know, again, I love basketball, but never had played anything like rugby and just instantly fell in love with the sport. And so that set me off on a path I am today to be here. And so, yeah, it was, like I said, it was love at first sight. And the other joke I'd like to make.

is in basketball I was pretty fast, I was good at chair positioning, kind of playing defense, ceiling, picking all those things. I was terrible at shooting, really, really terrible at shooting. So along comes the sport where you have to push really fast, be good with your chair, be evasive, good at defense, but you don't have to shoot the basketball. And I was like, this is perfect. So it really aligned in a lot of ways for me to have success pretty quickly in that as well.

Brendan Aylward (19:29)

Yeah, I don't think people realize how...

Physically demanding how fast, how aggressive the sport is. I think there's always a tendency to just assume that these are lower level sports. But one, if people haven't watched Wheelchair Rugby, definitely suggest you should. And maybe can you provide for people who haven't seen it or heard it, maybe just a gross overview of what gameplay is like, maybe how many athletes on each side, rules, et cetera.

Chuck Aoki (20:00)

Mm-hmm.

Brendan Aylward (20:02)

Thanks for watching!

Chuck Aoki (20:03)

Yeah, absolutely. So Wheelchair Rugby is the only fully full contact parallel pick sport, I like to say. It's played on a basketball court, four on four, four players on each team. And we each have little chairs that are like little battle rams, like little tanks, quite frankly. You can imagine your average wheelchair. I would add about 30 pounds to that thing and armor it up, put big old metal guards on it, and put the wheels that are covered in smoke guards. They really are built for combat, I like to say.

tip off and we've got sort of two tri lines at either end of the court. To score a point, all you have to do is go across that line with the ball in your possession. Sounds very simple. Then there are some rules sort of around how the game works. It's really a mix of rugby, wheelchair basketball, a little bit of hockey into it. It's kind of a mix of sports actually, so it's really unique. Each play starts with an inbound. You know, you inbound the ball, you've got 10 seconds to do that. You've got 12 seconds to advance across half court. You've got 40 seconds to score the ball entirely. So we've got a score clock very similar to that.

to a shot clock that kind of keeps the game flowing. You know, they did not used to have that. And so you'd have situations where teams would stall and hold the ball for a minute or two. And it honestly was just not very good for spectators. But now it's very fast paced, very hard hitting. As I said, it's completely full contact. The only contact that's not allowed is you can't physically like hit other players. Now they let a lot of that go, to be honest with you. Incidental contact is kind of like, ah, it's okay. And you're not allowed to hit players behind the axles, what we like to say, which is, which essentially is a situation where

You can imagine if a person is pushing a wheelchair and you hit the very back of their wheel, you'll send them into a tailspin. That can be quite dangerous. A lot of players don't have trunk function. They won't be able to catch themselves as they fall. So those hits are illegal, but other than that, it's pretty much all fair game when you're out in the court. And so I tell people it's very loud. It's one of the loudest sports you're going to hear two metal 45-pound chairs just crashing into each other. There's nothing quite like it. But there's also a lot of tactics to it.

you think, oh my god, they're just running into each other and crashing and flying. But the deeper you get into it, you realize there's lots of strategies, lots of logic. Like most Paralympic sports, we have a classification system, which I'm happy to get into it if we'd like to as well. So there's a lot of strategy that goes into lineups, who's on the court, what they're doing at a time. And so I like to say it's chess, but in bumper cars. So it's a lot of fun. As you said, I encourage folks to check it out on YouTube or, you know, obviously upcoming summer in the Paralympics on NBC and Peacock.

Chuck Aoki (22:32)

you'll be able to see lots of it. So it's a it's a very exciting spectator friendly sport.

Brendan Aylward (22:39)

We can touch on those classifications real quick if you want.

Chuck Aoki (22:42)

Sure, yeah, I think it's an important aspect of para sport. A lot of people watch para olympic sport for the first time, and they're like, well, why is that person against that person? This doesn't make any sense. And the idea is that we're always trying to be as balanced as we can based on a function level. So what that is to say is that ideally someone who is missing an entire leg is not running against a person with cerebral palsy, for example. The impairments are not similar there. But so for wheelchair rugby specifically, I'll overview this quickly and briefly.

We every player is assigned a score or a classification score a value and those values range from zero point five All the way up to three point five in half point increments. So zero point five one point zero one point five two point. Oh, etc

And so as I said before, there's four players on the court. The four players total point value cannot be more than eight. So if you can imagine, you know, if 3.5 is the highest functioning player, you cannot have more than two of those players on the court at any time. You can't have more than two 3.0 players, which is my classification. If you're going to have a player of a higher value, you're gonna have to balance it out with lower players, or lower value players, I should say. And so I like to say it's the meritocracy of Paralympic sport, and it's a little unusual, I think, for folks,

for fans of able-bodied sport because I describe it as, if in the NBA they said, okay, you can have a guy who's seven feet tall, no problem, but you gotta have a guy who's under five eight. And they'd be like, oh, that'd be weird. But that's the best way I've always found to describe it is the idea is like, because disability is spread all across different function levels and it's all replaced, you know, we have to kind of find a way to balance it or otherwise the folks at the lower end of the spectrum would just have a harder time keeping up. And it wouldn't be their fault. They can be the best athlete, work as hard as they can. But if they're paralyzed

Brendan Aylward (24:07)

That'd be sick.

Chuck Aoki (24:26)

from the chest down and have limited arm function, they're simply not going to be able to do the same things in the quadruple amputee you know, who is missing their hands and their feet, but otherwise is fairly able bodied it, is gonna be able to do. So it's a really unique system. I think it's something that when people watch it for the first time, Paralympic sport and wheelchair rugby for the first time, they'll say, well, why is that person going slower? Like, is there someone faster? And it's like, well, maybe, but I say that within that person's classification, they're actually incredibly fast. They are the fastest in the world at their classification.

and relative to the other players, maybe they look a little bit slower, but they're out there, they get to kind of balance that out. People get that and say, oh, that makes sense. And then, like I said, there's a lot of depth and understanding kind of what's going on with those classifications, I think is very interesting.

Brendan Aylward (25:09)

Yeah, you referred to it as chess. Anecdotally, is there any, is it better to have like four 2.0s or two 3.5s and two halves? Like, have you guys kind of played around? Obviously, I'm sure you have and figured out kind of what the best orientation is.

Chuck Aoki (25:25)

Yeah, so it's a great question. So it depends on the country, and it also depends on your pool of athletes. The Australians, for example, who are one of our top rivals, they have leaned pretty heavily into what we call a high-low lineup. So 2.35 players, 2.0.5 players. They're really big on running that kind of lineup. We in the US tend to run more what we call balanced lineups. That would be like myself with a 2.5 player and a 2.0 player and a 0.5 player, or myself with a 2.5 player and 1.5 player.

And a 1.0 player, we tend to run more in the balance side of the game the way we like to play it. But it really depends, a lot of it also ends up being what sort of talent you have. If you have really talented 2.0s, you're gonna wanna find a way to get them on the court. If you have really talented 1.0, you're gonna wanna find a way to get them on the court. And so there's a lot of strategy goes involved in kind of figuring out what are we gonna do. And it's one of the biggest challenges the coach has at the beginning of the season when selecting the roster is okay, what are we gonna balance this with?

really good, let's say 1.5 players, but you're not going to be able to play six of them. So how do you balance that with people on the higher end? It's a really interesting sort of issue that they have to deal with.

Brendan Aylward (26:36)

For a lack of a better term, has there been any like unified wheelchair rugby where maybe you have quote unquote an able-bodied athlete playing alongside other with disability and is there kind of a, it seems like that would be an easy way or this classification system seems like it would be an easy way to kind of level that playing field to a degree.

Chuck Aoki (27:00)

Yeah, so there have not been yet. Wheelchair basketball, I know, has done that. In Canada, for example, able-bodied players play in their leagues. We've had conversations about it. A big belief we have here at Michigan, actually, is that adaptive sports are for everyone, especially since, to your point, you sit in a chair. Yes, you're gonna have more function in some ways, but you're still sitting. You're not running around. And so we have a lot of conversations about what that could look like. Certainly, in our practices here at Michigan, for example, we have student volunteers who come and they'll hop in the chair and play,

get pretty good over time and so we have we have never put together kind of a full true league but it's something that I have a lot of interest in you know I think it's a great way to grow Paralympic sport is to basically say well this is for everybody you know and to your point classification is a way to kind of balance it out I know they the class fighters get a little not annoyed but they've worked meticulously to have this nice balance system and so if you then add a let's call it a 4.0 class for able-bodied players like oh well what do we do now all the math's going off but we could figure that out

Brendan Aylward (27:59)

Yeah, and also just because I don't have a diagnosed disability doesn't mean I'm obviously not going to be better at wheelchair rugby than you. So I shouldn't just be automatically 4.0 just because I don't have a diagnosis. So what physical traits are most important for wheelchair rugby?

Chuck Aoki (28:08)

Certainly, yeah.

Chuck Aoki (28:13)

Sure. Yeah.

Chuck Aoki (28:21)

Yeah, so wheelchair rugby, I think there's two or three physical traits that are really important, especially, you know, particularly in the form of high levels. You've got to be very fast. You know, the game moves extremely fast. Even if you're a 0.5, you've got to be incredibly fast at 0.5. You know, obviously you're not going to be expected to chase down 3.0s, but you've got to be able to be extremely fast within your classification. So speed is one. Endurance is another. It's a very physical sport. You know, getting hit, then having to start up again,

It's tiring, and doing that over the course of four eight-minute quarters with a stop clock You end up you're on the court for an hour and a half to hour You're on the court for a very long time. And so you have to have really strong endurance to be able to do that successfully That's a big one is really having that sort of strength endurance And then the third thing that I'll say is and this is this is not quite physical But I think it is in some ways is you know, you have to be tough You have to be really okay with getting hit is the best way to put it, you know

way I describe this is when players first show up typically we see them and you know get them in the chair and they're pushing around like oh this is good cool and the first time they get hit for real not like a little love tap but someone really comes and hits them you pretty much know if that person is gonna be a real rugby player or if they're gonna be something else because they get hit and half the time their eyes light up and they're like oh okay they hit you back or they do it and other times they get hit and they kind of shrink down oh like

about that. And this is not to denigrate anyone, it's not for everybody and that's okay, it's not for everybody likes to get hit, not everybody plays hockey, not everybody plays American football. So I don't, I certainly don't, I don't talk bad about anyone who does that, but you do have to have this sort of slight, slight sort of craziness about you where you say, yeah, getting hit, yeah, sign me up for that. Like, let me get, let me get knocked around and tipped over and sent flying. I think that's one of the cool things about our sport is you find that all the athletes

You know, whether they were people were injured midlife and were kind of missing that thing that made them feel alive or someone like myself Who's never played, you know ice hockey or like I said football and I was like, where is that? What is that real feeling of it? I think that's a that's a really important one

Brendan Aylward (30:35)

I played golf so I can't even begin to relate in any way. How do you train outside of specific sport practice? Like do you guys supplement with strength and conditioning?

Chuck Aoki (30:38)

Oh, you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised.

Chuck Aoki (30:48)

Yeah, I think one of the great things about Paralympic sport in the last, I would say, maybe I'd say 10 years, maybe even longer, maybe 12 years, is that it's really become more professionalized in terms of training. There's a lot more trainers who are willing and interested to learn about training adaptive athletes and there's really been a broad movement across the board for Paralympic athletes saying, no, we're going to take this seriously. We're not just going to show up and get our bio and our function. We're going to be serious athletes. So strength and conditioning is a huge part of what we do.

for myself personally, it's usually lifting weights three to four times a week and then I'm in my chair doing a lot of sprint work. I would say also.

three to four times a week, although I know those numbers, I don't go eight days a week or anything like that. But you know, it's a balance of both. I think for my sport, the longest I'm ever gonna sprint full speed is 94 feet. So I'm not like a marathoner who they've gotta go do miles and miles and miles and miles. I'm only going a short distance. So most of my work is really burst intervals, a lot of power, being able to kind of work really hard. That's really what I do in my training, is just sort of grind really hard at that, that sort of explosive.

Brendan Aylward (31:30)

sessions.

Chuck Aoki (31:55)

of work on it. Let's go really fast for short distances and then do it again and then do it again and then do it again and then do it again and then do it again. So it's, you know, I say to people, you have to love to do that if you want to be successful at it because that's the unfun part, right? Going to the Paralympics, that's the easy part in a lot of ways. The hard part is getting up and putting yourself to the gym even when you don't want to.

Brendan Aylward (32:01)

Yeah.

Brendan Aylward (32:10)

Yes.

Brendan Aylward (32:15)

even those interval sports, it's definitely essential to have a good cardiovascular base as well, even the short sprints, whether it's hockey or basketball or really any of those. So definitely training a variety. You were named as one of the two flag bearers with Melissa Stockwell for the previous Paralympic Games. What did that honor mean to you?

Chuck Aoki (32:24)

Yeah, absolutely.

Chuck Aoki (32:36)

Yeah, I mean that was truly one of the best honors of my life.

I think it's what people may or not realize is the flag bearers for the countries are voted on by the athletes of that country. And so that really what that meant was that I was nominated by my team, the Wheelchirobi team, but then all of Team USA Paralympians voted for me, Melissa, to represent them and to lead the flag out. It was really special. It was a really, really incredible thing to have that sort of honor and for them to say like, we want you to lead us out of the biggest event of some people's careers. It was really cool. It was really special.

was really impactful for a couple reasons. Two is one, you know, it was in Japan, my heritage is Japanese. But what's really interesting is that my grandparents on my dad's side and my aunts and uncles, everyone on that side kind of, that older generation was actually interned in the internment camps during World War II. You know, they were essentially put in prison by the United States and for, you know, two generations later, the grandson of someone who had been sort of, quote unquote, locked up by their own country was then leading their country out.

really kind of incredible full circle moment you know where you know things can change and obviously what happened during World War II is terrible but you know we're able to progress and move forward in our world so that I was able to do that, so it was really special honor something I'll really treasure forever.

Brendan Aylward (33:57)

Yeah, that's a really cool parallel. Prior to that competition, though, you faced some health conditions that kind of put it in jeopardy, right?

Chuck Aoki (34:06)

it was a tough beginning of 2021 for me. Certainly, we went to our first training camp of the year, first one back from COVID, was there, was training, everything seemed fine, obviously kind of tired. After three days of training, I woke up and I said, ah, I don't feel well, I don't feel like I'm tired. Okay, well, let's just give myself a break. Haven't done this in months and months and months. Maybe I'm just a little worn down. So, stayed in bed.

week. Never felt bad but never felt good. Just kind of was in this weird middle ground.

And so I and so you know I was doing that and finally decide okay, you know what? Let's just send you home. Let's get you home. Let's not worry. Let's stop having you here So the night before I was supposed to go home woke up horribly sick just horrendously sick at 3 a.m. I said, okay, something's wrong on here. We got to take you to the hospital So went to the hospital Birmingham ended up having to stay there for a month actually I'm excited incredibly bad infection in my leg. They had just gotten completely out of control Septic really sick for a long time And yeah, it was just it was tough, you know

was really hard, but eventually managed to have a surgery. They quite literally took my knee out and put cement spacers and stuff back in. Was on IV meds for eight weeks up until at this point we're running up into about April and it was sort of like you said, it was, I don't know, are we gonna be able to do the games? Is it gonna happen? And so, but was able to get healthy in time and our S&C coach at the time put me on an aggressive training plan to say the least to see how we could do. And I was able to get back there.

do it. It took a lot of effort. My time girlfriend now wife was instrumental and kind of basically being with me every day. She came down to Alabama and was with me and helped me do my meds, get trained. I really owe a lot to her that I was able to get back at all. her family as well who we were living with at the time. So it was definitely a touch and go thing there for a minute. But I made it through on the other side and now it's something that just sort of happened to me. It was unfortunate. Yeah, but the one thing

Chuck Aoki (36:13)

The one kind of cool takeaway is the lead up in that window I had, I had about two and a half months to train before the games. I worked as hard as I'd ever worked and I really discovered that holy cow I could push myself really hard. I didn't really know how to push myself. Hopefully I'll never have to push myself quite that hard again because we were trying to make up for five months of lost time. But it was kind of cool to see wow there's something there's another gear in me that I can do if I need to.

Brendan Aylward (36:38)

Yeah, that's awesome. Those 2021 games, were they, if I remember correctly, the first ones that were televised nationally?

Chuck Aoki (36:48)

You know, I couldn't remember for sure what exactly they were in Rio. I know London, we didn't have much coverage at all. Rio, there was a bit of coverage. But yeah, Tokyo, I know there was really some of the most robust coverage we've had so far. And obviously the time change was tricky and being COVID was tough. But yeah, it was great. We had coverage, people would watch us on TV. I got posts from people who's watching us, seeing us, it was really, really cool. And the coverage is only getting better. We're really only seeing more and more commitment from NBC,

Brendan Aylward (36:51)

Yeah.

Chuck Aoki (37:18)

to lean into Paralympic coverage and saying, this is the next thing, this is gonna be big. And we're gonna have really amazing coverage, I know in Paris, and then honestly, not looking forward, not saying, but LA is gonna be even more amazing, I know, but we have Paris first.

Brendan Aylward (37:33)

How has that landscape of Paralympic sport kind of changed because of this exposure? Can you kind of identify any quantitative?

Chuck Aoki (37:43)

Yeah!

Yeah, for sure. I think that when I first started, and I've been on the national team since 2009, 2012, with my first Paralympic games, we've really seen a recognition and understanding and awareness, particularly from brands, that Paralympians are athletes they can leverage. They've got great stories to tell, they're great speakers, they're great athletes, and they're people they can partner with to be successful. And I think that when we first started, there was sort of like, it was the Olympics, oh yeah, and there was this Paralympic thing.

I don't really know what that is, but that thing is there too. Now it's really Olympics and Paralympics. Or in some cases, it's Paralympics, period. They just say Paralympics. So I think it's really advanced a lot. We've seen so much growth on social. We've seen athletes with absolutely massive followings who are Paralympic athletes, who are, that's what they're known for, but they also have the personalities, I think. So we've really seen tremendous, tremendous growth and sort of understanding and awareness and people saying this isn't just some sort of thing

These are competitive, high-level athletes who bring a lot to the table and brands want to partner with them. They want to have them on board. I'm lucky to partner with quite a few brands who are really high-end sponsors and are like, yeah, we want to support the Paralympic movement. We believe in this just as strong as the Olympic movement. We believe in Paralympians. We believe in helping you tell your story and we believe in what you bring to the table. So it's been a sea change, honestly, even in the last six years, really. It's been an incredible change. And I think we're only in the sea.

even more as we move forward.

Brendan Aylward (39:16)

Yeah, absolutely. For those who don't know, and correct me if I say incorrectly, but the Paralympics start about two to three weeks after the Olympics wrap up. And I wonder why there has to be that gap and whether, like, it kind of loses a little bit of its luster because of that hiatus. And I can't pretend to know the first thing about the logistics of organizing an event on that scale, but I wonder why it can't just all happen at the same time.

Chuck Aoki (39:45)

So it's a great question. I think there's a couple things I can say. One, the same time would be very challenging logistically because we stay where the Olympians stay. So the housing would essentially, it wouldn't have to quite double, but it would have to increase significantly. And then it would also require, and then we also use the same venues. And so the logistics in challenge, you would essentially have a much, much longer event, which is kind of what you're getting at, is why is there a gap?

Essentially the Olympics would go to like instead of being like what is it like two and a half weeks? It would go to being like a month or maybe a month in a few weeks It would just have to be so much longer For the sake of other working and so, you know, you raised a good question though There is this gap, you know, there is this kind of unfortunate and there are logistic reasons for it You know one is that all the branding changes they go from having the rings everywhere to having the agitos, which is the Paralympic symbol And so there's so there's that there's some practical things like that I know one thing is that you

know the Olympics are apparently are staffed by volunteers so they give the volunteers essentially a break rather than sort of throwing them back to work immediately following it and the other part is that you know it's worth remembering we you know will our first game will be the day after opening ceremony so right away and so we'll actually get in country anywhere from seven to ten days prior to it and so kind of that same point were they to back up just against the Olympics we would be arriving sort of in that last week at the Olympics which would be very cool.

Olympics, don't get me wrong, but it was sort of getting that logistic challenge. But no, you raise a good point. It's like having that separation can sometimes lead to sort of a gap and lead to a sort of a loss of energy. And so I think that's something I know I think about a lot and I know a lot of the media folks think of a lot too is how can we either keep that energy going or how can we really just say, okay, Olympics, great, awesome, here we go, here comes the Paralympics, kind of give people a reset. And I know there's a lot of really smart people in marketing working on this, really thinking

can we leverage these things and you know I think it's one of those two for me it's an if you build it they will come Americans love sports right we love to watch sports and if you if you provide the coverage if you give it the treatment it deserves which I think we're gonna see people will watch it people love swimming people love track and field they hopefully love wheelchair rugby you know they want to see these sports and so you know I think all your points are fair I think it's something that it would be amazing to have this one massive month-long event but for right now I think we can really I think

Chuck Aoki (42:15)

into their amazing, unique opportunities. And you could really look as the Olympics is this sort of on-ramp into the Paralympic Games that we can leverage all those eyeballs to say, hey, in two and a half weeks, come right back here. You're gonna get to see Team USA's best getting after it. And so I think there's a lot of cool things that can be done with that.

Brendan Aylward (42:33)

Yeah, I really look forward to the start of that. You were on the cover of Sports Illustrated with the title Achieve and Inspire. What are your thoughts on being considered an inspiration? It's something that we've had, or it's a conversation that we've had with some guests, kind of that inspiration narrative that perpetuates disability. Do you have any commentary on kind of that topic?

Chuck Aoki (42:56)

Yeah, you know, I think it's an interesting conversation. I think, you know, I think you'd ask 10 people with disabilities about it, and you'd get 10 answers. So this is only my perspective. I think for me, what I always say is that, you know, inspiring someone is really about that person, right? Something that they feel inside them. And so, you know, a big part of high-level athletics is I'm gonna control what I can control. My training, my feeling, my whatever. I'm gonna control that. I can't control necessarily how someone else is gonna react to something. And so part of me always is like,

away, there's only, I can't stop them from feeling that, you know. So I think there's that, but I think the other part is that, you know, what I think is important is that people with disabilities are not seen as inspiring literally just for existing. Going to the grocery store, driving their car, these are just things you do to live your life. You wouldn't be inspired by seeing someone just sort of doing it. But you know, when I look back at what I've been able to achieve in my life, which is, you know, at this point, you know,

That's really amazing. You've done that. That's gonna motivate me inspire me to do whatever You know, who am I to take that away from a person? Why would I take that away if I can inspire the next generation particularly of Paralympic athletes? Why wouldn't I want to do that?

why wouldn't I want to be someone they could look up to, if they do. So I think it's a nuanced conversation for sure. I think again that some folks would probably say, well, it's not good to feel that way and they're only feeling that way because you have a disability. And that might be true, don't get me wrong. But I think it's an interesting conversation and one we'll continue to have. But I think the only thing that I really do feel really strongly about is this idea that someone, you really should avoid just feeling quote unquote

out there just living a normal life. That's just someone doing their daily tasks. That doesn't need to inspire you, but if someone has achieved a lot, that can be something that inspires you. So I think it's a nuanced conversation, people have different opinions.

Chuck Aoki (44:58)

But I, like I said, I always come back to as well with me as I can't control how someone else is gonna feel or react to something. I can have a conversation, but I think if someone feels a way and you tell them, hey, you shouldn't feel that way, that often can be taken poorly as well. So it's something I try to be careful with.

Brendan Aylward (45:13)

Yeah, I think if you removed a lot of the context of this conversation, if we didn't talk about your diagnosis, if we just talked about you being a national level USA athlete, then it would sound basically the same. You very accomplished in the classroom, very accomplished on the court. Like, it would just sound like a professional athlete. And I think a lot of people are inspired by professional athletes. So whether you look up to someone in the Paralympics or the Olympics, the representation, we kind of mentioned it really briefly at the beginning, I'm sure is really important.

for a lot of wheelchair users that want to see people like themselves competing in the highest level and seeing themselves on TV. I think that representation is big. Who's gonna be your biggest competition at the Paralympics?

Chuck Aoki (45:58)

Yeah, uh, it's-

It's gonna be a lot actually. Wheelchair Rugby is lucky that we're growing with depth of talent. It makes my job harder. But what I've been saying to people is that I think there will be eight teams there altogether. Seven can win a medal. And that's no slouch to the eighth team. The eighth team, whoever it is, is gonna be just probably a step below. But seven teams can win a medal. And so it's gonna be the deepest Paralympics ever. It's gonna be incredibly talented. I think that our top competition at the moment, Australia, is the reigning world champions. They're incredibly good.

They're very hard to beat. I think the Japanese are very, very strong as well. France has recently come on as a very talented squad and they'll have that sort of home atmosphere behind them. We were in Paris late last year for a competition that was truly deafening in the arena when we played the French team. So they're very talented. They've got some really good players and so they're good. And the classic Canadians, we just recently beat them in Chile to qualify, but they're always a dangerous team. I'm just listing all these squads, but the reality is they're all-

good, you know, they're all really good. But, you know, Australia remains one of our sort of perennial rivals. Again, they're already world champions. They beat us in the world championship final in 2022. And so that's a team that, you know, I think, I think whoever wins will have to go through them to do it.

Brendan Aylward (47:13)

What will the next six months look like for you? Do you guys meet training camps? Do you train individually?

Chuck Aoki (47:20)

Yeah, so training on our own, of course, you know, kind of doing that grind. That's where the, I like to say, the quote unquote real work is done. Um, lots of that. And then we will, we do training camps once a month as well, and we'll have some competitions. So off to a training camp, we go to Denmark in late, uh, late March. We'll go to Wales in mid April, uh, for competitions. And then we'll have just, like I said, training camps, kind of working on some things, figuring out what lineups we want to run, kind of fine tuning stuff all the way up until our final camp before the pair of games. And then it's.

Showtime.

Brendan Aylward (47:52)

Awesome. It's a question that we've asked all the guests in the episode. Since our stuff is kind of centered around fitness, what do you think needs to be done to make fitness environments more accessible for individuals with disabilities?

Chuck Aoki (48:08)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think fitness, to me, the biggest thing that I think would be helpful for fitness to make it more accessible is if...

Commercial gyms in particular, I would say, really, and this is my main focus, commercial gyms, your planet fitnesses, your lifetime fitnesses, went beyond just, oh, well, you know, we have no steps to get in, we've got this, we got this, but really had an active goal of being a place where people with disabilities can train and can be adapted and we can figure things out for them, whether that's hiring more trainers, whether that's really being, you know, in marketing saying, we wanna do this, I think that is really, to me,

What can be most helpful is really saying out loud, hey, we're here for you. You can do it. Because, you know, specialized centers are great. Don't get me wrong. The place we train, Lake Shore Foundation in Birmingham, Alabama, is fully accessible. Amazing. There's a Marriott Freebed YMCA up in Grand Rapids here in Michigan that is fully accessible. Phenomenal. But the reality is we're not going to have those every single place in the country. And so it's like, how can we make these widely available commercial gyms as welcoming and accessible to people as possible? And how can a person with a disability enter that space?

and if either A, they feel welcomed, and have someone who's not sure how to do something, someone will step in and be able to kind of work with them and figure it out. And they don't even have to be, in my opinion, they don't have to be an expert in disability necessarily, but what they do have to be is compassionate and adaptable and willing to say, hey, you know, I'm not quite sure, but let's work on this, let's talk together and figure this out. You know, I think to me, that is the biggest thing, is just sort of an overall attitude shift of, we're gonna be an open and welcoming place for folks with disabilities.

and we're gonna have staff that is sort of prepared to assist them in any way, shape, or form. I think to me that's a really, really big and important thing because, you know, let's be honest, some people also can't afford to go to these bigger places. They can only afford to go to the place right down the street. And you know, I think you can get a great workout in at any of these gyms. You know, I go to Planet Fitness. You can get a great workout there, you know. And so I think it's really helping people feel comfortable when they get in there and then having the tools themselves and then go out and say,

Chuck Aoki (50:19)

and go to work instead of speak.

Brendan Aylward (50:22)

Yeah, absolutely. I like that. Yeah, the barometer that I use when hiring coaches at my gym is more so empathy, communication, how they treat people. It's easy enough to teach them the modifications and the adaptations that you can make to equipment and exercises. I think one of the tough things about commercial gyms is they try to pack a lot of equipment into their floor space. And then also the price point being so low, it's sometimes hard to leverage the individualized,

Chuck Aoki (50:31)

Mm-hmm.

Chuck Aoki (50:43)

I do. For sure.

Brendan Aylward (50:51)

personal training sort of thing that some people with disabilities might benefit from. But it's definitely something that I'm interested in tackling, we've been working with some YMCAs that seem to be committed and they have a really good model to be accessible price point wise, environment wise. So yeah, I'm hoping it's definitely adaptive fitness is definitely becoming more common. Hopefully it becomes the norm rather than the exception over the next five or 10 years.

Chuck Aoki (50:55)

Yeah.

Chuck Aoki (51:17)

For sure. I couldn't agree more. And it's great to hear all that. And I think it's so important because, I tell people this, especially with disabilities, it's like, you don't have to be a paralympic athlete. You don't even have to play a sport. But it really is important you find a way to be active, whether it be through fitness, whether it's weightlifting, cardio, whatever it may be. I agree. I think it is getting better. I think you're seeing more sort of awareness and recognition. This is something we need to sort of be able to provide. But yeah, it just takes time, right?

Brendan Aylward (51:28)

Right.

Brendan Aylward (51:47)

Well Chuck, it was an honor to talk to you. For people who are interested in following along, both with the Paralympics or with yourself individually, we can include it in the show notes, but where would you suggest that people go?

Chuck Aoki (51:59)

Yeah, awesome. No, I really had a good time talking. I think the best to really follow all the stuff I'm up to is on social media. Chuck Aoki on pretty much every platform you can find me. Also USA Wheelchair Rugby. We're on pretty much all the platforms. So yeah, go ahead and hit follow, come along. It's a lot of good stuff. And then of course, that's where we post you the links to watch games and YouTube and stuff like that. And then of course this summer, NBC and Peacock are gonna be your home for all Paralympic sports. And so we hope to have lots and lots of folks watch on there so we can.

really show the quote unquote powers that be that hey this is awesome people want to see this there's a demand for it and so there will only be more and more going forward.