The Growth of Amputee Soccer, Education, Etiquette, and Disability Bias with Nico Calabria

Nico Calabria joins Brendan Aylward for this week's episode of the AdaptX Podcast, where they discuss the projection of amputee soccer, Nico's involvement with the Bionic Project, and the nature of disability in the world of professional sport. Nico was born with congenital hemipelvectomy, a condition that manifests in the absence of a right leg and hip. Nico's disability provided him with the opportunity to scale his impact as an athlete and educator with the Bionic Project, which focuses on sharing disability education and advocacy with the youth. Nico is also the captain of the US Amputee Soccer Team, where he excels as a leader on the field. To learn more about Nico and the Bionic Project, visit https://www.bionicproject.org/our-team.

Episode Twenty Six: Key Takeaways

• Visibility can empower adaptive individuals, challenge stereotypes, and inspire a broader representation of diverse abilities. Positive representation not only enhances the opportunities available to amputee athletes but also contributes to a more inclusive society that values the capabilities and achievements of individuals with disabilities.

• Disability advocacy and education plays an essential role in the creation of greater opportunities in adaptive sports. Societal misconceptions to inadequate infrastructure make standards of inclusivity and accessibility more challenging, so it is important to encounter such misinformation and bias with proper education.

• Many adaptive athletes will have to navigate challenges such as equipment limitations and varying degrees of physical ability when engaging in sport. But, by redefining the normative standards of athleticism that have been perpetuated in the past, it is clear that success in adaptive sports is not only attainable but scalable with the access to the right support systems.Watch the Video on YouTube Below

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Episode 26 Transcript

Brendan Aylward (00:29)

All right, welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have conversations with individuals who are building accessible businesses or products, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports. Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but give them a platform to share their experience and amplify their voice. Today we are joined by Nico Calabria from Massachusetts as well, where our gym is. Are you still in mass actually? I know you've been traveling.

Nico Calabria (00:53)

Yeah. I'm in Concord.

(00:56)

I don't always love to start episodes talking about a diagnosis, but I think it's necessary to provide some context on the topics that we'll talk about throughout the episode. So you were born with congenital hemipelvectomy. To our listeners who might not be familiar with what that is, which I assume would be most, can you explain what that means?

(01:15)

Sure. Well yeah, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I was born without my right leg and hip. That's basically what it means. Yeah, I have no right leg whatsoever and it was a surprise to my folks. So I was just born healthy baby, but missing an entire leg. So there was some creative problem solving that had to happen following that.

(01:39)

Were you able to connect at any point through childhood or into adulthood with other people with the same condition?

(01:48)

Definitely in childhood, my folks wanted me to, or gave me the opportunity to seek those relationships out with other people with similar diagnoses or disability. I didn't want it though. I didn't feel comfortable with my identity as a disabled person growing up. The internalized ableism of the world definitely was something I was experiencing. So I definitely kept that part of my life at arm's length for some time.

Not until I started playing adaptive sports that I really start building those genuine relationships and coming to terms with that part of myself.

(02:24)

That's, I would imagine that's going to be an important theme that we'll talk about a little bit later in terms of how adaptive sports and representation are essential to someone's identity. But do you think mentally there's a difference between being born as an amputee versus acquiring a disability later in life?

(02:46)

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just woke up this way, you know? This is all I've ever been, so it's just kind of who I am. And I think that folks who go through a experience losing a limb, they understood what life was like on two legs prior to losing their leg. And I think there's kind of a redefining process that takes place. I haven't had to redefine myself. I've just defined myself. As someone with one leg for my whole life. So I think that particularly through trauma or something like that, I think there is a mental difference for sure as far as. one's perspective on their disability and their identity around being a disabled person. It's tough to speak for everybody, but...

(03:35)

Yeah, I guess there's a tendency to see disability as something that's lesser than, but you've achieved and experienced more than a lot of people, especially at your young age. So I know there's a lot more success to come. So how did your parents influence your ambition and help you cope and navigate your disability?

(04:05)

Yeah, I think they had a tough love mentality and certainly looking at things through an asset-based lens rather than a deficit mindset. You know, yeah, you have one leg, but you're going to need to figure things out for yourself as we go forward. So, you know, I had the same list of chores as my siblings and the same kind of expectations to get things done, even though they might have been harder or required creative problem solving to figure out.

I didn't like taking out the trash. I walk on forearm crutches, so that job really is a pain for me. But I can figure it out and I can get it done. So I think just having high expectations and high levels of support throughout my upbringing, I was blessed to have parents who didn't coddle me, but also offered the support that I needed to be successful, advocating on my behalf for inclusion in sports, for just about anything. Yeah, and then a tough love, kind of figure it out mindset.

(05:06)

Yeah, I think high expectations is essential. It's something that, and maybe it's perpetuated by the narrative that you often see in media and literature, et cetera, about disability, but kind of this like hopeless narrative that requires someone swooping into support and save. And I think the more stories like yours that get shared, the expectation that the general public have for disability changes, and I think that's essential. Appreciate you spearheading that to some degree as well. But growing up, did you ever like resent your disability or do you recall specific challenges that you faced?

(05:51)

Sure. I mean, yeah, things are just, it's like, my hands are occupied. I'm constantly, you know, just the challenges of mobility and carrying a tray to the lunch table. You know, just feeling like I stand out when I like hang out with people that are below the knee amputees, you know, paper cuts, like we call them in the industry. It's like, what is your impairment? Like, really? I know it's obviously this is a disability, but like compared to being on crutches and like around some of my amputee soccer teammates, it's like wow, you guys can wear pants and no one knows that you have a disability. I don't really have that luxury. Um, so I think probably the biggest challenge was just, and remains the, uh, feeling like I'm in the spotlight pretty much anywhere that I go. Um, and it's just, yeah, it's interesting. Like, I don't, I don't know if I'd call them, I don't know if microaggressions is the right word, but just like the experiences that I have with people on an everyday basis in public who don't understand who I am and what my level of impairments are, what sort of needs I have. It's just frustrating. Like people apologize to me all the time, all the time, for just being like nearby, you know? And it's not lost on me why that's all happening and it all comes from a good place, right? But I think that kind of.

Yeah, just feeling like I stand out all the time. That was, remains exhausting, lacking anonymity. Like just, that part was definitely tough. I mean, I think also just being excluded at parts of my childhood, but I don't think that really took place all that much, but I do have a few distinct memories of like being bullied and like not being included for having one leg and just like, you know, having to deal with that too.

It's like, you know, you're not gonna be able to change anything. So again, asset, just think about assets. Like you can't really get bogged down in things that are out of your control. So yeah, just trying to continue with that. Just focusing on what I can do. You know, can't control how other people think or feel about me. So just gotta be myself.

(07:58)

Did you ever look into getting a prosthetic? Was that an option? Did you ever consider using a wheelchair instead of crutches or?

(08:07)

Yeah, so I actually, I learned to walk on a prosthetic from age three to five. Um, but again, missing like the hip and missing the entire leg, you know, the prosthetic like attaches around your waist. It's a bucket seat. Like it's. It doesn't really, it didn't offer me more mobility than crutches did. Crutches offer me far more mobility and independence. Um, whereas the leg, you know, my, you know, I had a pretty severe length with that leg, like my gait was not, it was very clear that you know, I had some sort of disability, even with the pants on in a prosthetic. But yeah, as a little kid, I just chose pretty early. Like when I got my first pair of crutches, I was like, oh, I love these. Like it really gives me the freedom of movement that the prosthetic didn't. Just this thing kind of weighing me down a little bit, kind of dragging it around with me. Obviously like not being able to articulate my knee or my hip, you know, it's just every inch you go up in a prosthetic like that, you're gonna lose efficiency. So yeah, I broke my arm when I was in kindergarten, was in a wheelchair, did not enjoy that. I, yeah, and have kind of avoided seated sports over the course of my life because I prefer standing sports. But it's been really interesting getting more involved in the disability community and seeing what some of the challenges for people who are wheelchair users are in the accessibility space. That's something I didn't really notice. Growing up, like even though I had a disability, I didn't really have mobility impairment or accessibility requirements. So that has been an interesting experience to be around more people with disabilities and really have an eye for accessibility at this point. And, you know, that's not something I grew up with necessarily, whereas someone who's a wheelchair user, I'm sure that's kind of front and center as they go through their day.

(10:01)

Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned interactions and communication challenges that you encounter out in the general public. And now you work on this project, the Bionic Project. So you were a teacher. If I understand correctly, you took a break to pursue elite sports, but now you're kind of back into an educator role, albeit like in a slightly different context with the Bionic Project. So you guys go to schools. I'll let you describe it because you'll do it better. But you provide end services for elementary schools, middle schools on inclusion and disability.

(10:37)

Yeah. Okay. So Bionic Project, our mission is basically to fight disability bias through education, story, and sport. And we go into K-12 schools, colleges, businesses, et cetera. And we do basically inclusion work with these, these places. Typically, yeah, starting with presentations on key terms, disability, accessibility, some of the things to give focus a background on the inclusion work that's going on in the space and how to be more inclusive. And then we followed up with some classroom sessions and kind of digging into deeper topics. Cause if you take a look at disability from, there's so many perspectives you could approach it from, like I'm formerly a history teacher. So like, I love the history of the ADA, looking at the Capitol crawl, looking at, um, you know, just the advocacy work that was done in Northern California and how that's spread across the country. Um, you can look at it from a STEM perspective. Um, what makes for an efficient prosthetic, how do you design a wheelchair accessible refrigerator? You know, there's like lots of different ways you can take look at the topic of disability from different perspectives and different subjects. So we like to dig into those and kind of integrate disability work into the ongoing curriculum when we work with these schools. And then we always wrap it up with playing an integrated soccer game. We bring a bunch of crutches. We let the kids play empty soccer you know, I'll give them a, it is, it is a pretty funny crash course altogether. Cause it's like, we don't have a lot of time and we end up working with, you know, hundreds of kids on a week. Um, so they get there like 15 minutes show on crutches and. You know, it's, it's a challenge to be sure to try to learn a new sport like that really quick. But we find that the playing together, um, really solidifies some of the inclusion, like it's inclusion in practice.

(12:31)

As opposed to, you know, we can come in and tell a school like you should be, you should be inclusive. But I think like the experience of play, um, is something that really connects people and kind of fights the fear and bias that might be underlying around disability or other things. Um, so that's what the Bionic is project is doing. We also host, um, inclusive road races in Harvard square and San Francisco and looking to expand on that as well. Um, Yeah, I don't want to talk too much about, just like, I know I saw the monologue in the thing, so I don't want to keep going, but I can talk about Bionic for a while, and it's been really cool.

(13:10)

No, I'm very interested in that, so I definitely do want you to expand on it. I think I'm interested because I think I'm very, how do I want to say this, I'm very interested in why kids look at disability the way that they do and what experiences can possibly change that.

I mean, I had no introduction to disability until I was in high school. So it wasn't until I first volunteered with Special Olympics when I was 15 that I was exposed to really my first person with a visible disability. And I can't recall what my interactions were like with people with disabilities prior to that, but I know what they were like after, and I know it completely changed my life. So I'm very interested in how to influence, I guess, the next generation to adopt more inclusive mindsets and look at accessibility. Cause like you said, like designing a refrigerator for a wheelchair user never would have crossed my mind at all through middle school, high school, et cetera, if I hadn't had those experiences. So I guess how are you guys approaching changing mindsets? How do you think you'd do so beyond that one day that you offer a clinic? And then maybe, do you have any means of gauging the efficacy of the inservices? Because that's another thing that I'm interested in with the course that I teach. It's great if people go through the curriculum, but if they don't then implement, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't have a lasting impact unless they actually take action with it. So a bunch of different things there, but I guess how do you guys measure the success of the clinics?

(14:59)

That's a great question. I would say right now the we're collecting qualitative data, just kind of survey feedback, um, open response on largely teacher, um, and administrator. Uh, feedback, but I think it's a good, a good point that you bring up just like, how do we measure the efficacy of, of the work that we're doing? I think, um, one of the things that kind of got the Bionic Projects education branch started was a study that came out from Harvard that looked at, um, Basically trends in bias against different groups, whether it was like racial, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, et cetera. Those all seem to be actually decreasing over time. Kind of explicit or implicit bias around those things is decreasing due to the DEI work that's being done in the spaces. But the evidence found that disability bias was actually kind of a stubborn topic and didn't, doesn't seem to be changing all that much. Um, and I think that just speaks to a larger point where, like you said, Brendan, like you didn't really have an experience with a disabled person until you were in high school, right? Or you don't, you don't recall what those were. Like there probably wasn't that much representation or, you know, there probably wasn't a disabled person teaching in your, in your school. Who knows? Um, but it kind of calls to the fact that there's a lack of work that's being done in this space right now, or a need for the work to improve or increase. Because when we look at DEI, especially in the last five years, it's really been focused around race and gender. We even kind of this space for disability that you know, needs to be addressed as well. Again, going back to that Harvard study. So yeah, I don't know exactly. We don't measure the efficacy right now. It's a great point for something to focus on going forward. I think that we approach, our approach really comes to the idea that familiarity fights fear. If you have genuine connections and the ability to ask questions to a person with a disability, Um, in an appropriate setting, a setting that is designed for that to happen, to take place for the curiosity of children to be addressed, um, by people with disabilities, that I think really starts to show that just there's a connection. We can have a connection as people and then like, yeah, let's learn about disability together as well. Um, you know, especially when you play with like younger kids, it's like play is so important for building relationships and, and seeing that someone that looks different or has a physical disability isn't something to be afraid of because when you think about, more often than not, what people's experience with disability is, it's the child pointing or saying something loudly about a person with a disability that they see on the street and their parents being freaked out and embarrassed that their kid is asking a question and then kind of shooing them away. And children are very perceptive to...

(18:01)

Okay.

(18:09)

body language to the vibe, right? They might not be able to describe it, but they can feel it. And if that is what your experience with disability is, you are creating fear in some ways, that this is something that's different, it's not something to be talked about, it's taboo. So coming into the schools and being very open, it's like, we are here to answer your questions, to talk about our experiences and to play a game together. Gives children the space to really just ask their curi, you know, address their curiosity and not feel like disability is something that's off topic or that's not on limits.

(18:46)

Yeah, that's something that I've mentioned in a few other episodes as well, like the tendency for a kid to maybe look inquisitively at a wheelchair and then a parent to be like, oh no, stop staring. And it's just kind of reinforcing this idea, like don't interact with anyone who looks different than you, like don't interact with people with disabilities, like you don't want to offend them. And then it kind of just becomes ingrained, like you said, familiarity over fear, like I'm going to be afraid to say something to someone with a disability that my parent just said might be offensive. So then I just ignore the situation outright and I never kind of take the step to engaging with that. So I wonder, I guess, I feel like the curriculum that you guys share or these inservices that you provide should be mandatory in every school. Like you spend so much time on academics and I'm not sure how much you retain.

But you have an opportunity to influence the entire generation on how they see disability and what lens they go into adulthood seeing it through. And I think that would have larger dividends than really most academic subjects, I guess. In my bias, I mean, I'm biased in that way, obviously.

(20:03)

Yeah, I think, yeah.

I think it's really important to give kids an experience with people with disabilities. Yeah, and I think ideally what will happen is, you know, we don't have the stretch or the reach to be in every classroom, right? But it would be nice to work with a school grade every year so that kids that are coming into a middle school, into a high school, have an experience with Bionic Project and kind of, you know, build that baseline of inclusive uh, language, inclusive ideas and, you know, can carry that through their, their education. But I agree. It's like those types of experiences. I think when we look back at our education, like things like that typically stand out. Whereas like, you know, that one more day in math class or one more day in English class, did that really, you know, kind of put us together. And I think another important thing, Brendan, just to kind of wrap up that last topic is You know, we want people to have familiarity and be able to act like, interact with people with disabilities, but we also don't really want, or at least I don't really want people to be coming up to me in public spaces and constantly asking me about my disability. Right. So it's like, you know, people with disabilities have different comfort levels of wanting to answer questions about their disability, you know, I think just the constancy of having to be kind of like on display for the public.

and need to be like, I want to represent people with disabilities well. I want to be like kind and answer this, this little kid's question and say, like, it's okay to not, you know, to ask questions, but it's also like doing that over and over and over again. When someone, again, going back to trauma, it's like, if someone has lost their leg in a traumatic event, they shouldn't need to answer questions about their disability, you know, which could be triggering in a lot of ways to do that over and over and over again. So again, creating a space that is dedicated to having children be able to ask and have their questions answered by people with disabilities is something that, and then we talk about that. It's like, is it appropriate to go ask somebody about their disability right away? Well, maybe you should figure out what their name is first. Maybe you should know something else about them before you ask them really personal questions about their body. So that type of just background where it's like, if we could get every kid to go through something like this, it might make a significant difference in eliminating bias.

(22:14)

Yeah.

(22:29)

I mean, just as a thought experiment, you said you can't be in every classroom, but and I'm kind of the same way, like maybe the course that I teach can't make it to every gym, but what if I, what if the expectation or the ultimate goal was to be in every gym and what if the ultimate goal was for your curriculum to be in every school? How do you think that would have to be delivered? Can you guys design a curriculum in the same way that you have the common core math standards and a teacher takes them and they implement it. Is there any, or does it lose some of the value I guess if an able-bodied teacher is the one who's delivering the curriculum instead of you going in and interacting with the students and kind of having that representation?

(23:17)

I think the in-person, I think that's what's different about Bionic. There's other places, other organizations that can provide, you know, DEI curriculum on disability, you know, key terms, historical events. Um, so I think we're not really in the space of trying to, um, I don't know, have like an off the shelf curriculum that deals with these things, you know, move United actually has a really good kind of adaptive sports curriculum that they're working on. Um, there's some other ones that come to mind.

But yeah, I think for us, it's like, Bionic, we're all formerly educators. So like, you know, I taught middle school history for four years and high school history before that. Some of the other folks have been like health and wellness teachers that also have disabilities. So I think kind of having, yeah, teachers, you know, trained professional teachers that have disabilities that are now not just delivering a curriculum, but like really, you know, teaching.

It's actual teaching. I think that's some of the feedback that we get that changes it is that, or that's unique to Bionic is it's clear that we're educators and we come in and we understand how to meet children where they're at developmentally to help them take away the learning objectives. Whereas if it's just kind of like a curriculum you send over, that could be great in a good background but I think the experience particularly of playing together makes a big difference as far as the stickiness of education. And so much of the time we see that experiences are some of the most valuable teaching tools. So having that experience of playing the amputee soccer with people from the national team, people will remember that, whereas they might not with just the book curriculum.

(25:04)

Yeah, I mean, I think what you retain is obviously tied to emotion as well. And you're probably going to have a much different emotion sitting in a classroom listening than you would out on the field playing soccer. I don't know if this is a, it's just something that kind of popped into my head, but like some, some communities and circles and some information I've read about, like disability simulations is somewhat frowned upon. I don't know if this is perfectly applicable to your environment as well, but like do you think the idea of mimicking or participating as an amputee playing soccer has any negative repercussions? I'm not sure I'm phrasing that well, but I think you might know what I mean. Like sometimes there's companies that'll do like a neurodivergent simulation and provide sensory overload so you can experience what it's like to maybe have autism or wear a blindfold and experience what it's like to have a visual impairment. And some people don't like those simulations, the people with the diagnoses themselves, because it kind of makes it seem like it's transient or temporary. Do you think there's any negative aspect of like a simulation like you guys do?

(26:21)

It's a great question. Really, really a great question. And it's something that we've, we've talked about pretty extensively. I don't know if we've come to a conclusion on it either. I think, um, yeah, I, so I guess, no, I don't, I don't think that there's negatives to doing it. Anyone can play wheelchair basketball. Right. It doesn't have to be someone who has a disability that's playing wheelchair basketball, everyone can play in a chair and it levels the playing field. Same with amputee soccer.

You just pick up your other leg and you can play amputee soccer. The challenge for the kids is not using that other leg to then kick the ball or run on. And that's kind of like what we challenge them to do. It's like, hey, look, you're gonna, this will be really hard for you because you've got this extra leg that you're not gonna be using. But can you do it for 10 minutes? Do you think you can do it for 10 minutes? And then it's really interesting to see which kids are really willing to give that a try and who is kind of like, well, I don't really care that much. Like, I just like regular soccer. I'll just have these crutches in my hands and kind of be running around with two legs. And it is interesting. I mean, I think. Yeah, what are the benefits of kind of like a day in the life or like a simulation? I do think, like you said, you know, experiences and emotions that are powerful teaching tools. And I think then the way that things are framed, and this is really what teaching is, is like how do you frame experiences and discuss them, right? You want to introduce them in a way that sets the stage, and then you want to debrief them in a way that like leaves the kids with, you know, going on the right track.

And if the only takeaway is like, oh, how did one leg sucks? Like, no, that's not really what we're going for. I think we're more like, look, amputee soccer is a sport that's being played around the world and around the country. It's very challenging to play. Look at the athleticism that's involved. Look at like what it looks like at the highest level. What was challenging about it? What did you enjoy about it? What was different than you expected? And then being able to facilitate those discussions, I don't find that there's really a downside. But I also get it. I've thought about the, you know, try to navigate your school in a wheelchair or try to navigate your school blindfolded. I think, yeah, the transient part of that. I haven't read too much about the research of why folks are against these simulations so much, other than I think it feels like it leaves people with a pitiable perspective on disability. That's one of the things I've heard at least. But I don't know, yeah, I like experience in the classroom. I'm very much trying to give kids experiences so that they can learn from them. Whereas just telling somebody something is not gonna leave them with the same impression as having an experience. But I can only speak for my disability and my situation. I love it when my kids went around the school day with crutches for a day.

(29:21)

Yeah.

Yeah

(29:24)

Just see how it is. Like what did you need help with? Like what was hard? What was easy? Um, and then debriefing it, having like the space to really debrief it well, I think is where things fall short. If you just leave an experience and kind of like the, in a vacuum, then people will form their own perspectives and they may be positive or negative. Whereas if you can do a little bit of framing, um, that might, you know, improve the takeaways.

(29:49)

Yeah, no, I think that's well articulated. And like you mentioned before, the play piece is kind of the part that reinforces the ideas that you shared in the classroom portion. And I think it's an essential part of leaving kids maybe motivated or more interested. Because at the end of the day, I guess if you're doing a one-day clinic, the best thing that you can do is leave your students motivated to learn more. And play would be the best would probably allow people to do that. And like you said, I mean, anyone can play wheelchair basketball. I think it would be awesome if adaptive sports were more regularly a part of the PE curriculum. Even if you look at the research on motor learning, like you can improve specific skills by playing with constraints. So whether it's playing on one foot, amputee soccer, or if it's shooting a basketball in a wheelchair, like that can make you better at your skill when you're not in those environments and when you're just playing how you traditionally do. So I think it's interesting. I would love to see it included more in PE. But you mentioned soccer, obviously it took us a half hour to get there, but you are the captain of the US amputee soccer team. So we'll dive into that a little bit deeper. But in high school, you played traditional soccer, correct? This may sound like a foolish question I guess, but like, did you have any advantages being on crutches? Was there any resistance in allowing you to participate?

(31:06)

Yup.

Um, I don't think I had any advantages. Um, other people did, but, um, yeah, I remember, I remember in, uh, 2013, I, or maybe it was 2000, yeah, 2012 fall season, my senior year, I made the varsity program at Concord-Carloff high school. It was a really strong soccer program. They actually just won a state title this year. They've been winning state titles. So it's a, it's a competitive program. And I, I made the program on merit at like kind of the.

(31:23)

Yeah.

(31:47)

the team, didn't see much playing time. But yeah, the way that I played, I grew up playing soccer with crutches. And I, when I was a kid would like touch the ball with my crutches, definitely an advantage when I was doing that. And it was something that people definitely like looked down on. But then when I learned more about empty soccer and the rules and, you know, understood that it's a handball to be touching the ball with your crutches on purpose.

I stopped doing that in order to prepare and train and I was in middle school. So from middle school through high school, I was playing just with one foot. Um, the folks who think it's an advantage to be playing soccer with, with one less foot, I, uh, you've done some impressive mental gymnastics, but, um, I do remember in 2012, like making this team and I scored one goal in that season. Um, and it was one of the most beautiful goals I've ever scored. It was off a corner kick. It comes to the far post. I like back up off the ball and then.

(32:32)

Yeah

(32:46)

kind of do like a really high side volley, just caught the ball flush, put it into the corner, one of the best goals I've ever scored. And it was caught on video and then it went viral on YouTube. It made it onto Barstool. And I remember being a high school senior and then reading through the comments on that video, which is a no-no. If you wanna see the toxicity of humankind, that's the place to go.

(33:10)

Hehe

(33:16)

Um, yeah, so I remember just seeing like lots of people, um, you know, just saying like, this is cheating, like he has such an advantage and it was just like, all right, well, haters are going to hate and I'm just going to keep doing my thing. But, um, yeah, I remember moving to Massachusetts from Indianapolis when I was nine years old. Um, I remember the referees association basically saying, you know, this is unsafe and, you know, also kind of an affront to the game. Um, and my folks, uh, had to fight basically to have me included when I moved here. I have this, yeah, distinct memory of my dad standing in front of this panel of referees, and he would pad my crutches with PVC pipe insulation. And then he was like whacking himself in the head with it in front of this group to basically say like, look, it's like, it's safe enough like for the run of play. And their concern was, well, what if he uses this as a weapon? And then he like put on a cleat and said like, well, I can come cleat you too.

(34:08)

Thank you.

(34:16)

and like it's a weapon there. It's about, you know, his behavior and being able to maintain his temper, which I remember him telling me, he's like, Niko, I'm going to take your crutches away if you ever use them as a weapon, because you're just like, I was like, damn dad, that's intense. But yeah, definitely was excluded growing up in some ways. And then over time,

(34:26)

No.

(34:30)

Uhuh

(34:39)

Yeah, made it, made it work playing traditional soccer. And then it was honestly a very interesting transition to start playing amputee soccer, which is similar in a lot of ways and different in others.

(34:51)

You mentioned it came on your radar maybe around middle school is when you want to start trending towards following the legitimate rules. But I don't recall amputee soccer really ever being on my radar until the last few years. So what was the landscape of amputee soccer like, I guess, 10 years ago when you were in high school?

(35:17)

Uh, not much of a landscape really. It was, um, in, I think it was 2005 or something. I, uh, picture of me in the paper playing soccer with crutches, um, was seen by the president of the American Amp Soccer Association at the time, a guy named Rick Hoffman. And he basically got in touch with my family and reached out and said, Hey, did you know that this sport exists and like is being played in, you know, 20 something countries right now, and we'd love them to come out for the, the U S team when he turned 16. So then 10 years of of nothing, like there's no youth clinics, there's no like opportunities for development, etc. At that point in time, the national team was getting together like once every two years, maybe once every four years just to go to a World Cup. Who can make it? Who can pay for a ticket? You know, who's available to take time off work to come? Isn't this so great that we're able to play? And I think a big part of like my story in Amphithe Soccer has been being a part of and helping lead the team from that of like a participation kind of like charity sport towards one of kind of like elite competition and you know professional athletes. So yeah between that photo being seen and playing my first match when I was 16 there was nothing happens and then even like the last maybe from 16 to like 20.

Yeah, 2014 World Cup through the 2018 World Cup and then beyond. It's like, there wasn't that much happening. Um, but there is a ton happening now, which is super, super exciting. And the reason that I left my teaching job, as you mentioned earlier, it was tough. I was like, uh, teaching full time at a public school, coaching soccer and wrestling, running these regional amputee soccer practices, potentially flying to different parts of the country or around the world to play soccer a couple of times per year.

And if that didn't line up with like school vacation, then it was like, I'm already a teacher, you get tons of time off, but if it didn't line up, I was taking like weeks off to go play in Mexico. And it was just, it was just way too much to try to be training full time. Um, and do all of that. So yeah, that's why I stepped back from teaching and I'll be back to it full time. Um, once my, like, my competitive career is over. Um, but that's why Bionic has been such a fantastic place to be because it's really like connecting all of my passions and it's on a part-time basis so it allows for flexibility and training and getting to these competitions and tournaments so it's been a it's been a really good you know bringing together of all these different things that I've been interested in

(37:57)

There's really no one that is having a greater influence on the popularity of the sport than you, correct? And you can, you can say that and you don't, I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm sure you won't agree to that, but, um, are there other people that you're working closely with that are, cause I mean, I see you everywhere you're flying somewhere for a clinic, you're flying somewhere for a training in Colorado, um, like who else I guess is kind of spearheading this movement.

(38:29)

Yeah, well, I would definitely shout out my teammate and one of my best friends, Joe Vaughn Booker, who's a striker on the national team. And I think the two of us. Well, we're just trying to lead by example. You know, taking a step away from teaching, like that was a salary that was gone. And something where it was like, I didn't really know how I was going to make ends meet in order to pursue this. Joban was a health and wellness teacher and he did the same thing. And we want to play professionally. We want to play amputee soccer professionally. And essentially we're going to fake it till we make it. Cause right now there's not, there's no salary associated with playing this sport. And it's not like it's about money, but it is like, I need to put food on the table. And we want to try to help bring the sport forward so the next generation of players can pursue this as a career. No one's gonna be rich off of it, but at least people who want to spend their young years doing this and taking it as far as they can will have the opportunity to do it. So Jovan and I from the player side, and then from the kind of association side, organizational side. There's plenty of folks. Eric Lamberg, our president, James Pierre Glott, our treasurer, many others who I'm not mentioning are definitely doing the work. And it's on a volunteer basis. And I think that's been one of our biggest challenges is like, we're going up against these teams, Turkey, for example, being the best in the world. Those guys are pros. They train year rounds, like they get a salary to play empty soccer and you see them win world cups because they treat it like a profession. Um, I'm treating it like a profession, San salary. And so is Jovan. And we're hoping that like, over time, we're going to be able to provide more opportunities for, for people to play. And ultimately we just need to get touches on the ball because these other places are playing year-round and don't have the same kind of geographic and financial constraints that we do to get our teams together. Um, so that's our biggest challenge is figuring out like, how do we get these touches on the ball? Everyone's working.

Right? So it's like, people can't just take a week, like take multiple, like, like I was dealing with that, my old job, you can't just take multiple weeks off to like, go do this without it being compensated for it and losing the compensation that you're from work. So there's a lot of challenges to being a competitive team and we're just trying to lead by example and, you know, make, make ends meet in other ways and then be, be training like a professional on the rest of the time.

(41:05)

What have you learned from those countries like Turkey, England and France that have domestic leagues? Is there anything that you can bring that they, anything that they do that you can bring to the states?

(41:20)

Totally, yeah. I mean, you don't have to look far for a good model of what's successful. Turkey, Poland, England, Mexico, Costa Rica. It's really the idea of you need to have regional programs that are strong and playing on a regular basis, well-funded, well-run, well-organized, so that you can raise the expectation for your players.

If the expectation is like, oh, like this is a whole all volunteer thing. Like we do it as best we can. Like it's okay if you can't make it. It's like, no, I want to, I want to fundraise and be able to stifle all the players on the new and mid revolution team. No, no, you have to make it to practice. You're being paid to like be here. Like you need to train like, like you're a professional for this sport. Um, and that's on the competitive side of things, right? There's also the grassroots, um, participation pathways underneath that where, you know, kids are just getting their chance to play people who want to play on the recreational side, have an opportunity.

But for the competitive side, that's what we see being successful elsewhere is that people make serious commitments both like time and financially towards the sport. Um, and then those teams competing with one another in different parts of the country are, you know, that builds your national team player pool. Um, so the success we've seen between new England, New York, um, a few of the other startup regions that we have has been really exciting to see because we've been talking literally for a decade about.

getting regional teams started. And it's just a heavy lift. Like it's hard to get people together. It's hard to find the resources, um, getting the in-kind donation of field time, et cetera, to, to be able to play. And then I've got dudes that are driving from Connecticut and dudes that are driving from New Hampshire on a weeknight, right? You might be doing like two and a half hours one way to come to a practice where six people show up, but the people want to play and, um, the success that we're seeing on the regional level has been super exciting because

It, yeah, it just goes to show people are playing now. People are playing now. Whereas beforehand it was like, you know, whenever we get together for a national team camp, it's going to cost about 25, $30,000 to fly everybody in, lodge them, get field time, and then you get like two and a half days on the ball twice per year. Like that is not a winning, that's not a winning program. Um, but that's all that we can do right now. So it's, it's been. Yeah. I could, I could talk about this for, for a long time.

(43:44)

It's been really cool to see the development of the league. I've been a big part of helping back it going. The New England team here and now these other league teams that are started in different parts of the country are coming along. So giving people that access on a local level has been a huge step forward for us.

(44:01)

The revolution have been big supporters of your program. Is there a reason why all MLS teams aren't following suit? I'm sure you guys are working on that.

(44:14)

Yeah, well, it's interesting. It's a mixed bag. MLS clubs, you know, they're their own entities and they have different priorities. New England was just, they knew me for, they've known me for a long time. And they've been, we've just built a really powerful positive relationship over the last decade, really. In other parts of the country, there are some teams that are, I think it was St. Louis that reached out and was like, Hey, we want an amputee soccer team. Like, what do we have to do to get an amputee soccer team?

And then we're scratching our heads like, all right, well, we don't have anybody. We don't have any local amputees or players in that region right now. So it's about like building it from, from the ground up, which, which we're, we're working on, but that takes time. That's not just going to a team won't spring up overnight. Um, and then there's other places where we have some challenges with the, just the bureaucracy of different teams. Like New York has probably the best attended regional team.

in the United States, the most people playing amputee soccer in a locality. And, you know, they're in discussions with NYCFC and New York Red Bulls and trying to take it to the next level where the revolution were just very willing to do that right away. Let us use their name and likeness. So it's, yeah, it's, we would, ideally a 10 year goal would be to have a competitive and recreational team for men and women, kids and adults in all of the MLS.

franchise areas. That's a huge goal, but incrementally if we can get another one each year, we'll be happy with that for sure.

(45:47)

Yeah, your endeavor to grow the sport is pretty similar to the process of scaling a business or growing a business. The hope, I guess, is that initially, like when I started my gym, you might kind of slum it for a couple of years without much of a return and you're waiting to see where you get traction. You're trying to figure out what works. What do you think is the path to profitability or sustainability for the sport as a whole?

The sports that are attended the most have the largest fan bases, etc. The ones that generate the most revenue and excitement. So do you envision that amputee soccer can get there or move in that direction?

(46:34)

Yeah, I hope so. I think that, I think that amputee soccer is, it's an exciting sport. I think that people that come to watch it, they're entertained. They're entertained by the physicality, the speed, the skill. Um, and I do think it is a marketable sport and something that might be able to generate, um, you know, viewership. I think in the disability sports world, we're looking like it's how much viewership is really other than the Paralympics do we see? And what is the viewership like for Paralympics? So I think it when we look around the world Turkey, for example, they sell out stadiums playing amputee soccer in Turkey Turkey's also absolutely soccer crazy, but you know, we don't really have that in the States so much but I think over time this will be a sport that is I hope watched by people across the United States streamed on your streaming sites. I think we're a while out for that still, but that's one hope. And then I think really the way of success for the organization is about moving from this all volunteer nonprofit towards something that is.

(47:52)

You know, full-time, there's full-time staff that are working on it, um, you know, year rounds right now it's, we have these people who have been amazing allies and advocates for the team and for the community, the limb loss community, limb different community who have given, you know, decades of service to help grow the sport from where it was when there was literally nothing going on when I was a little kid towards to now where it's like, we have a men's national team, a women's national team, a youth program, a regional program larger funders that are starting to look at it. And I think we've reached the point now where we're ready to kind of take that step into, fundraising to pay somebody to do this work on a full-time basis. And yeah, I think that's probably the next step for us as far as, I don't know about profitability so much as sustainability. Um, and really just trying to remove as many barriers as possible for people to access the sport on a regular basis. Cause it's right now it's, it's too far, few and far between to, to really be a competitive program.

(48:53)

You mentioned barriers there and we typically ask most of our guests this at the end of the episodes, but our efforts are more in the fitness space than the adaptive sports space, but I know you're well versed in the fitness world as well. So what do you think needs to be done to make gyms more accessible or inclusive?

(49:22)

Um, well, I think for one, having accessible, um, physically accessible spaces is obviously a starting point. Um, and yeah, when I, when I think about it, I usually break it into the like physical or the technical side and then the social side. So technically it's like, is your gym accessible? Are people, you know, in wheelchairs able to actually access your gym? Are people with a variety of different, um, disabilities able to access your gym?

And then on the second side, the social side is like, what sorts of training have, um, folks gone through to work with people with disabilities? Are they well versed in, um, language around disability? Are, are they going to be offering a welcoming place, um, where the person with a disability is feeling like this is a gym where they belong as opposed to constantly being like, wow, that person's so amazing. I'd so amazing that they're here and they're, they want to do fitness.

You know, like if we're going on the inspiration side of things, or if we're going on like the pity narrative, you know, what is the narrative and the vibe in the gym, um, through the trainers, through the other people that are there. Do you see multiple people with disabilities? Um, are disabled people featured in the art and in the space itself? I think there's lots of questions you can ask on the social side too, which is probably trickier. Um, you know, accessibility, it's like, yeah, take it beyond ADA compliance and make sure that it's like really designed in a way that welcomes people with disabilities.

Um, and then the actual social work, um, you know, educating, educating your, your trainers and, um, the folks that are working there on how to interact with people with disabilities and, you know, how to, how to accommodate and, um, adapt exercises so that they can still get, you know, full body workout or whatever sort of workout they're trying to get, um, with the same level of expectation, kind of like going back to that beginning of the conversation where, you know,

We want to set high expectations for everybody to be able to achieve those and not just set the bar really low because somebody has a disability.

(51:28)

Do you like being considered an inspiration? You mentioned the inspiration narrative.

(51:34)

Um, I don't like being considered an inspiration because of going through my day to day. I don't mind if people are inspired by my actual accomplishments. I'm proud of the fact that I took a step away from financial stability essentially in the teaching space in order to pursue this and build this game for the next generation. I don't think I'll reap the benefits of that. But yeah, that's something I'm proud of. And if that's inspiring to somebody, then that's good because it's like, I did something that hopefully is actually inspirational.

When I'm going through my day to day and I go to the grocery store and someone calls, it just wants to comes up to me and says like, Hey, I just want you to know you're amazing. It's like, I don't really need that. Um, you know, so if it's, if the, if the actual accomplishment of a person with a disability is inspiring, fantastic. You can be inspired by that. But if it's just, again, how, where are the expectations? Are we setting them super, super low for people with disabilities or are they. Set at a reasonable level. Um, but it is funny. I think like going through my life and It's the constancy of it that I think is so challenging, of just being constantly complimented for just living my life. And it's funny because it's a bias that is really coming from a place of trying to be positive. And people want to make me feel good, right? They want to give me a compliment. And, or they want to hold the door for a long time, or whatever it is, you know? And it's like, it's the everyday aspect of that becomes tiresome. Not so much any one person saying something nice to you, but just, oh, they said something nice. And then the person after them on the hike said something nice. And then the person after them, wow, look at you out here. It's like, thanks, man. Like that made me feel really good. Like, and I think a lot of times people, they don't understand that it's like, how am I experiencing this? You were feeling good about yourself because you complimented somebody with a disability and you've seen that that's something that you should be doing. For me, I was just complimented by the last three people behind you that said something similar to me. And then my girlfriend's like, dude, this is so, is this always how it is? It's like, yeah, this is like, this is how it is.

(54:00)

Yeah, that's an interesting point that they're complimenting you to feel better about themselves, not necessarily to make you feel better. But that's probably something that they don't even introspectively kind of identify as they do that. But you mentioned the Bionic Project hosted 5K. A team from iGym will be there. It's usually in April, correct? Early May, April.

(54:23)

Yep, so it'll be the last, yeah, it's the last Sunday in April. Pull up the date for you.

(54:28)

perfect in Harvard Square. Hopefully we got a little better weather than last year, but it should be good.

(54:34)

Totally, yeah, this year was pretty, this last year was pretty cold. Yeah, I believe it is the, yeah, so it's April 28th. Sunday, April 28th at 11 a.m.

(54:49.446)

Yeah, so we'll have a cohort of people from our gym there running it. Bionic Project, if there's anyone in the audience that works within a school district, the K-12 school district, and is interested in bringing the clinic to them, you are just offering them in Massachusetts, are you moving a little bit outside?

(55:09)

I think we're expanding. We have a pretty good base going in San Francisco as well, but I'd say like broader New England area, including New York, I think is places we're looking to go and willing to drive to. The other thing I'd mentioned, Brendan, is that we're looking for educators as well. So people with disabilities who are interested in getting involved, being involved in the school, the schoolwork, as well as just any of the sporting events you know, as we expand where I can't be in all these schools. We also don't necessarily just want to do amputee soccer. We're looking to expand the types of disability sports that we offer to these different districts and businesses. So anyone that wants to get involved, I'd love to get in touch with you and share some more information.

(55:57)

Yeah, hopefully we can facilitate some of that as well. I know I talked to one of my members as well to see if he was interested in contributing on the education side. So hopefully we can facilitate some more connections there. But Nico, thank you. It's been a pleasure to get to know you over the last year. And it has been, you might not want to be called inspirational, but it has been inspiring to watch what you've done over the last year. I have followed it closely on social media and it seems like. You're always on the go. And like I mentioned earlier, you've accomplished and you seem to experience more than most, not in spite of your disability, but as you are. And I think it is a great thing to depict to the greater population. So like you mentioned, you can elevate expectations. So thank you for doing the work that you do.

(56:47)

Yeah, thanks Brendan. Yeah, it's been great getting to know you too. And I appreciate everything you said and the work that you're doing for the community. We need more allies and more folks that are, yeah, advocating for accessibility in tons of different ways, in different spaces. So I really appreciate the work that you're doing with AdaptX and I'm excited to continue to be a part of it in whatever way I can be. But yeah, thank you for all that.

(57:12)

Some Will Link Bionic Projects, 5K, as well as the Educational Endeavor in the show notes. We'll include some US Amputee Soccer stuff as well. But I would strongly encourage anyone who's listening to watch it. It really is equally, if not as, more exciting than traditional soccer as well. So thanks.